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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1992-11-24 P&Z Minutes~ RENAI PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION November 24, 1992 - 7:00 P.M. City Hall Council Chambers Chairman Art Graveley AGENDA 1. ROLL CALL 2. APPROVAL OF AGENDA 3. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - November 10, 1992 4. PLANNING a. Preliminary Plat - FBO S/D #3 5. PERSONS PRESENT SCHEDULED TO BE HEARD 6. PUBLIC HEARINGS a. Resolution PZ 92-34: Carr's Sign Variance 7. NEW BUSINESS a. Lease Application - Creative Childcare, Ltd. 8. __OLD BUSINESS a. Landscaping/Site Plan Regulation - Review b. Resolution PZ 92-26: Rezone - See (Tabled for one year from 10/14/92) 9. CODE ENFORCEMENT ITEMS a. Quandt Property b. University of Alaska Property (off Beaver Loop) 10. REPORTS a. City Council b. Borough Planning c. Townsite Historic Task Force d. City Administration 11. PERSONS PRESENT NOT SCHEDULED 12. INFORMATION ITEMS 1. City Council Agenda 13. COMMISSION COMMENTS & OUESTION3 14. ADJOURNMENT RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION 1 Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 2 La Shot: That should probably be "thirty minutes." VOTE: Bannock: Yes Goecke: Yes Hanson: Yes Bryson: Yes 5. PERSONS PRESENT SCHEDULED TO BE HEARD None. 6. PUBLIC HEARINGS Bryson: Asked that this item be addressed later in the meeting. There was a quorum of four Commissioners, but Bryson would be abstaining from action on this Variance. Glick would be coming to the meeting late, which would reestablish a quorum. a. Resolution PZ 92-34: Carr's Sign Variance Glick: Opened the Public Hearing portion of the meeting. ***PUBLIC HEARING - VERBATIM*** Paul Carr: My name is Paul Carr, I live in Anchorage at 10661 Makushin, the zip is 99515. We're requesting this Variance for the sign dimensions to provide some identity and entrance sign to the Kenai Plaza. Looking at the conditions as provided in the application, we feel we meet the intent of the Zoning Ordinance, and your sign requirements. I would note, that the one sign, the entrance sign is only 27 square feet (sf) and the total of all signs, including the main sign is about 180 sf, 185 sf, whereas two signs would be allowed to have 182 sf, I'm sorry 162 sf. So, hmm, it's, while it may appear to be a large variance request, I think the analyze, on the surface, it's not. We would like to, huh, put some signs on the road, the one sign for entrance to help identify the entrance and internal circulation. I'm not that familiar with your community, although every time I'm here I like it, and I say I'm going to come down more then just to go fishing in the summer. But I did rent a car and drive it tonight. For the conditions of the road, muddy headlights, dark and all, we do need some identity signs out there and that' s what our request is for . I' d be happy to answer any questions. Glick: Do the Commissioners have any questions? RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 3 Hanson: If we allow your sign do you feel we should allow any other business in the City of Kenai to have a sign as large as yours? Carr: Mr. Chairman, I believe it becomes a matter of scale. This particular development we're talking about, we're talking about almost 25 acres and alot of parking. I think a sign of this size on a 10,000 sf lot may not be appropriate. But I think, if you put it into scale, the cars in and out the internal circulation, I, the location entrance clear visibility, I think all of those things should come into consideration. So I would not say, no, they shouldn't be allowed, I would say that I think if it's a reason for a variance they should be looked at on a case by case bases. Hanson: Do you think you will lose business if this variance is not passed? Carr: That's hard to say. We might lose some, and I know we're getting to the conflict strictly for pecuniary benefit, mainly it's, the Carr's enterprise tries to have your total trip to be a pleasant one. Easy to find in, easy to park, snow removal and easy out. So, the more enjoyable, or the less hassle, I guess you might say, that you have on a visit to one of the stores, well, the better off the image is, and you would come back. I think it will make it safer. Most people know where Carr's is, unless you're a tourist, like me, coming from Anchorage or someplace, it's harder to find. But, I, really can't say. We might lose a little bit to start with, but then again, people will identify where it is and they'll come. Goecke: In order, to back up to what, something you had said there, it's 162 sf for multiple stores, is not a problem. But that's on one sign, multiple stores, one sign not multiple signs, or multiple locations of signs. Carr: I was, I perhaps misread your ordinance, I thought perhaps it was, what is it Jack, hi, by the way ." La Shot: It's 81 sf per business of sign area. If several businesses were on site and they chose to have a combined sign you get into the 154 sf for that combined sign. That's the way I interpret the code. So each business out there gets, by code, 81 sf of sign. Other than, what's on the building or marquee, it's talking about freestanding or pole signs. Carr: In that sense, the largest sign, the main, the Kenai Plaza sign, including the main sign and the sign below it is 158 sf and if I read that correct you would allow 154. l RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 4 La Shot: 81 sf, total. Carr: Total, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And than the entrance sign is 27 sf. Goecke: But than you're also allowed only one sign per business. La Shot: No you can have probably more than one sign as long as the total . Goecke: Does not exceed 81, I stand corrected. Carr: I stand corrected too, thank you. Goecke: How large, you patterned this store after your Huffman store, how large of signage do you have there? Carr: Very similar, the signs we have requested here are almost identical throughout the Carr's chain. Hanson: On your application for Variance Permit, P.A.C. are your initials? Carr: Yes sir. Hanson: Than the initial beside number four, which reads, "the special conditions or circumstances," I should, that's number three, " the special conditions or circumstances are present which are peculiar to the land or structures involved which are not applicable to other lands or structures in the same land use or zoning district." I think you addressed that in mentioning your size. Carr: I hope so. Hanson: Okay, the question I have regards number four. "Special conditions or circumstances have not been caused by actions of the applicant and such conditions and circumstances do not merely constitute a monetary hardship or inconvenience." I wonder if you would like to speak to that? CEirr: Well I will again, and if I may, Mr. Chairman, I think that relates to your question, will we lose business? That I don't know. There may be a drop in business for a short period of time until people get familiarized with the I shouldn't say familiarized because it's been there for a while. And people know that, they have become more familiar with the main .entrance and the identity and than the sub entrance sign. We felt that over the years that signage is very important for identity, done well within KENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 5 the community, within the community code. We would like to have the opportunity on the size of the sign because of the size of the store, for the various specialty shops. It's become more and more, not just a grocery store, but a full service store, that it's important to identify all the services that are there. Too reduce frequent, or other trips, and in turn provide a better shopping image and kind of a one stop facility from take-out food to garden supplies. Glick: Any other questions of Commissioners? Carr: I had one more thing. My name is Paul Carr, I should say Paul, no relation Carr. Thank you. Glick: Thank you. Okay, do we have anybody else from the public who would like to speak to this item? John, speak your name and address for the record please. John Steinbeck: John Steinbeck, Tanaga Street, Kenai, yes I think that everything they want to do can be done within the way the ordinance is now. The old Carr's store over there, you can tell what kind of sign they have and they didn't have any problem with people getting in and out of there and people finding the store, or anything. I think if you allow them a variance, then K-Mart will be in for a variance because they're down the street a little ways and they'll have to have a little bigger sign so they're recognized. And I think the intent and purpose of the ordinance will be lost here if you start letting variances do it. And I can't see why everything they want to do can't be done within the ordinance how it is now. Bannock: Mr. Steinbeck, I have a question. You were mayor of Kenai? Steinbeck: Right. Bannock: You've been in Kenai for a long time and I'm probably, I'll take credit for being the most vocal about the sign ordinance that Kenai's had. I've rallied against it for as long as I've been on this body. But the reason that I am going to support this ordinance or this variance, and I'll ask you about it, because you were the Mayor. Why 81 feet? Where did that number come from? What if the ordinance said 200 sf? And I asked for a work session a couple of weeks ago and nobody liked any of my ideas, but I wanted a re-write of the sign ordinance, number one, or secondly, a tie-in to exactly what Mr. Carr has pointed out to us tonight. This is not a small little organization. This is a huge building, this is a huge lot and you hit it right on the head, K-Mart is going to be coming around and talking to us, probably other people RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMIBBION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 6 are going to be coming around. McDonald's came around. We have some minutes here from National Bank of Alaska, when they were turned down. We have minutes when Carr's, when McDonald's was approved, so the variance mechanism is in there for a particular reason. Where do you think, why do you think 81 is a good number? And I don't know when that sign ordinance was adopted and I'm asking, I don't have a personal problem with this at all. But what do you think about 81 sf? And why do you like that number? Bteinbeck: I wasn't in on the ordinance when it was written up and I don't know why they picked 81 sf. I think the reason that they kept that size down there, was so when you come into Kenai there won't be one billboard after another. They wanted to have some control over that, I think a few years back in Soldotna, you know they had to change their sign ordinance because it just got completely out of control. You know, they had the little blinker sign and any kind of sign that you wanted and they started putting it up there. And I think when this ordinance was written, well the reason it was written that way, so you wouldn't have the big billboard type signs up along the main street there. Bannock: Do you think the actual signs were talking about, or the sign here is too big? Or the fact that they need a variance to get it is the problem? Bteinbeck: I think the sign is too big. You know, the 160 sf sign, that's an awful big, you're getting billboard signs then. I don't know whether the 81 feet is the right number or not,but the reason I live in Kenai is because of the way it is today, it's not all cluttered up and junked up and everything. It's not like going into Los Angeles or one of those places. And I think the reason it is that way is because we've kept some control over the signs, and the entrances in and out of Kenai. And I think when you start getting into the great big signs and everything, ahh, you know than we get into start looking junky, it's not clean cut looking city, the All America City we just got. Glick: John, don't take this wrong, but just by way of information for my own mind, what size is your sign over there, do you know? Bteinbeck: 50 sf. Glick: Just 50? Bteinbeck: Yea. Glick: That's on each side? RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meetinq November 24, 1992 Page 7 Steinbeck: Yea and I'm not up here opposing the variance or anything because I'm in business on Willow Street or anything, I just think that the sign is too big for the City of Kenai, really. For what we're trying to do down here. Glick: Anymore questions from the Commissioners? Thank you. Steinbeck: Thank you. Glick: Yes Paul (Carr)? Carr: I'm sorry I'm not more familiar with your procedures, but would I have a chance to answer a couple of questions? Glick: Let's see if there is anybody else in the public that wants to speak first. Is there anybody else in the public that would like to speak to the sign variance? Okay, it doesn't look that way, so yes, Paul, if you want to. Carr: I can certainly support Mr. Steinbeck's comments in relation to the All America City and you don't want the flashing and the j arrows and those things. In Anchorage, when they revised their ordinance we were one of the main backer's in cleaning up the Anchorage sign ordinance, to have a nice community too. In relation to billboard size, if I'm not mistaken I kinda figure these two blackboards, are about four by eight each, or somewhere in that neighborhood. Together they would combine 164 sf, I'm sorry 128 sf, at four by eight each. The sign we're asking for, the big sign, is 131 sf, so probably the size of these two boards on top of each other and that also includes the plate on the two ends and the top as shown in the diagram. So, in all due respect to Mr. Steinbeck, it's hardly roadside billboard size. Glick I think two 4 by 8's would be 64 sf, right? Carr: Un-huh, and two of these would make it 128, two of these would be 128. And our sign, the big sign is 131. Hanson: So I guess in relation it's at the narrowest part it's 12 feet wide, 8 feet high, so if we stacked them on top of each other and added another half, right? Carr: Well, yea, that includes the points out, not the actual reading point, but the overall thing. Hanson: What I have in my packet it goes out to 15 feet. I'm saying if you stack these on and add another four feet to the end, that's how big your sign is, not including the points. RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION ~ Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 8 Carr: Well the big sign is, is to the point, is 15'8", and the depth is 8'4", but I squared those up and than I took the dimensions of the points out, and I came up with 131 sf. Two 4'X 8" would be 128. Thank you. Glick: Okay, once more is there anybody else from the public who would like to speak to this? If not, I'll bring the public hearing back to the Commission, what's the wishes of the Commission? MOTION: Bannock MOVED for approval of the Variance Permit to Carr Gottstein Foods. Glick: Do I have a second? Once more, do I have a second? Duane that died for lack of a second. Goecke: Mr. Chairman, I didn't second this for one reason. I think it's a little bit on the overkill. I would not have had a problem if this would have been the main sign only, but for multiple signs, for as large as even those are I just figured it was too much. Glick: Probably what we should do is approve the motion to get it on the floor then we can amend it, change it. Yes Duane? Bannock: What I was going to hit, Mr. Chairman, if I could ask for a second I would make a motion to table this until we have a full body, or closer to a full body. We have one abstaining member, we're struggling for a quorum as it is, an issue as divisive as this has been I think we need to have more than four individual voices speaking on it. Especially if we can't even get it seconded to discuss it. Glick: Yea, as Chairman I think we need to at least . Bannock: To allow this to die for lack of a second is really poor. Glick: Then we can amend it as we want, if we get it on the floor, or we can table, or kill, or whatever. SECOND: Goecke: In that light, I'll SECOND it. Glick: So you're still making the motion Duane? Duane: Yes. RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 9 Glick: And you're seconding Ron? Okay, now do we have any comments on the motion? Bannock: Yes, I would like to table this until the next meeting. Harvey: We will not have a full Commission again until January. Glick: Did you catch that Duane? Bannock: Can I request a five minute time-out? Glick: Just for five minutes? Okay, we're at ease for five minutes. A five minute recess was taken at 7:35 p.m. The meeting reconvened at 8:40 p.m. Glick: In order to get a couple of letters in the record here which I should have done while we were in Public Hearing, I'm going to reopen the Public Hearing. We had two letters here on the table tonight, one from Alan J. Norville that I'd like entered into the record, and there is also one from the Kenai Chamber of Commerce. I guess everybody has read them. The one from the Chamber would like to restrict the amount of signage. As I read the one from Norville, he's not really saying that but he's against giving this sign if future people can't have variance permits. I don't think I need to read these into the record, do I? Since your just gonna enter them in the minutes. Harvey: Whatever you want to do. Glick: Does anybody have any objections to that? Everybody has a copy? Okay, once again we'll close the Public Hearing once again and bring it back to the Commissioners. Now we'd like to . Duane? Bannock: Before making comments on the letters we need to make a comment that there was a letter of non-objection from Alan Berg too. It was already in the packet. Glick: All right, we have a motion on the table and seconded. What's the wishes of the Commission? Hanson: As I understand it, if the motion does not pass, the applicant has the right to appeal to the, appeal the decision to the City Council, is that correct? Glick: Yes. RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 10 Hanson: And could the applicant, failing that appeal, make a similar, if not exactly the same application at a later date? Would that be possible? Glick: I think what he'd want to do is make a different application or, unless you have some recommendations at this point what we would accept. Hanson: I think it's way too big. I was born and raised here and I went out of State for a few years, came back because I like the way things are done here, and I came back specifically to Kenai, as opposed to Soldotna or anywhere else in the State, cause I like the way Kenai looks, I like the way it feels, I like the sign ordinance as it stands. I think 81 sf is plenty big to announce what business you have. I can't believe that anyone could pass Carr's and not know where it was. I don't know that putting an entrance sign at one of the two that connect to the Spur would have any major effect on traffic flow. And just in the interest to fairness to all the businesses in the community, if we're going to allow this size sign for a single } business then we should allow that size sign for any business. Just because a business happens to take up 10,000 sf, 20,000 sf, or 1,000 sf, they have an advantage already in their size or a disadvantage in their size. If we grant signs based on the size of the business we exasperate that again. Glick: Duane, do you have any more comments before we vote on this? Bannock: No. Glick: Okay then, let's vote on it. MOTION: (Bannock moved for approval of the Variance Permit to Carr Gottstein Foods. Goecke seconded.) VOTE: Bannock: For the single purpose of being in the majority and asking for a Reconsideration of this I will, very sorrowfully vote no. Goecke: No Hanson: No Glick: No. Bryson: Abstain Glick: Okay, motion failed, Duane? RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION i Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 11 Bannock: Mr. Chairman, I ask for a reconsideration of this Variance Permit at our next scheduled meeting. I know that Commissioner Scott will still be out of town, but hopefully I will be able to scare up other people that can vote on this. Glick: Just Kathy will be gone next time, right? Harvey: Paul you're going to . Hanson: I won't be here. Glick: When will Art be back? Harvey: I think he will be back the seconded meeting in December. Glick: How long will you (Hanson) be gone? Hanson: I should miss one meeting. Glick: The second meeting in December we should have everybody except Kathy. 1 Harvey: You (Hanson) will be back? Hanson: Yes. Harvey: Yea, well traditionally we don't have that meeting. Glick: Paul (Carr) how much of a hardship would this put on you if we postpone this until our first meeting in January due to conflicts with Commissioners not being here? Carr: Well, huh, Mr. Chairman obviously the hardship is being denied, but, if we haven't been denied, if we've just been postponed it's something we can live with, if that's your wish. We'll play by your decision, huh, throughout the process we would like to have a full Board to generate more debate on those issues, so if that's your wish, we will accept that. Glick: Duane would you accept the .? Bannock: Yea that would be fine. Glick: Until the first meeting of January? Bannock: That would be fine. Glick: Acceptable to everybody? RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 12 Hanson: I don't see how it will change, with one member abstaining even with the additional two, we still have three members opposed. Glick: But he asked for a reconsideration and we have to grant him that. Hanson: Very well. ***END VERBATIM*** 7. NEW BUSINESS a. Lease Application - Creative Childcare, Ltd. La Shot: Reported that the application was from John and Karin Gensel. This zoning area is General Commercial, which does not address childcare. The Applicant's are aware if the lease application is approved they will have to obtain a Conditional Use Permit. ~ MOTION: Bannock MOVED recommendation to Council for approval of Lease Application to John and Rarin Gensel for Lot 3, Block 4, Fidalgo Commercial Center Subdivision. Hanson SECONDED. ***DISCUSSION*** Bryson: At first he thought it might not be the best area for a Childcare center. But after further review of the areas which this center will serve, it appears that this is a good central location for the new courthouse, K-Mart and other retail businesses in the area. Bryson felt it is a good area for such a use. Goecke: Concurred with Bryson that this would be a good location for a childcare facility. La Shot: Suggested that this recommendation be predicated on the applicant's being granted a Conditional Use Permit (CUP). Bannock: Said he would be happy to do that, if the applicant would not be tied to the lease, if the CUP was not granted? La Shot: That would be correct. Mr. Gensel does not want the property if he can't get the CUP. Bannock: Said he had no problem changing his motion to accept that. Hanson concurred as the seconder of the motion. RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION j Meetinq November 24, 1992 Page 13 Glick: Asked for the motion to be read. (He had arrived during the discussion on this item.) Motion was to recommend approval of this lease application contingent upon approval of the CUP to operate the facility. VOTE: Bannock: Yes Glick: Yes Goecke: Yes Hanson: Yes Bryson: Yes Bryson: Asked that Item 6 a. Sign Variance for Carrs be addressed at this time. Bryson turned the meeting over to Vice President Glick, as he would be abstaining from this item. 8. OLD BUSINESS a. Landscaping/Site Plan Regulation - Review Glick: At the last meeting Commissioners requested more information regarding the last attempt by Council to change this ~ ordinance. Glick asked for Commissioner's comments. Goecke: Felt if the ordinance is in place and not being enforced, why have the ordinance. He felt that the ordinance should be abolished, it's just something on the books doesn't need to be there. If there's going to be some "teeth" to the ordinance than keep it, but if not he felt the Council should do away with it. Glick: Do away with it altogether, or put those particular items onto Planning and Zoning? Goecke: Do away with it altogether. Bryson: Asked if this ordinance was being utilized for Commercial development? La Shot: There is really nothing being done with it. Bryson: If people feel this is a desirable ordinance Council should be requested to enforce it, as opposed to eliminating it. Hanson: From speaking with ex-Mayor Malston, he got the feeling that this ordinance should remain on the books. He agreed with Bryson that Council should either enforce it, P&Z should enforce or they should reconvene that Board. Suggested that Council should enforce it themselves, if they wish to keep it on the books. 1 RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION ~ Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 14 Glick: Staff has requested a recommendation on this from the Commission. Goecke: Jack, what is your personal feeling on this item? La Shot: It is my personal feeling that it should either be removed from the Code or enforced. The review process should fall on P&Z as it would be a more dependable body to review applications. MOTION: Hanson MOVED to recommend to Council that the Landscaping Site Plan Regulation either be enforced or dropped from the books. Goecke SECONDED and wished to amend if Council wants to keep in Code Planning and Zoning should review Landscaping plan. Hanson agreed. Bryson: Recommended to the maker of the motion and second that the proposed Ordinance 1246-88 be adopted as the position of the Commission. I probably need concurrence of the maker of the motion and second. So concurred. VOTE: Bannock: No Glick: Yes Goecke: Yes Hanson: Yes Bryson: Yes b. Resolution PZ 92-26: Rezone - See (Tabled for one year from 10/14/92) 9. CODE ENFORCEMENT ITEMS a. Quandt Property A letter from the State to the lessee (copy attached) of this property was passed out to the Commission prior to the meeting. b. University of Alaska Property (off Beaver Loop) 10. REPORTS a. City Council - Not available b. Borough Planning - Not available c. Townsite Historic Task Force Hanson: Reported that Chairman Arness had brought in a copy of a draft revised ordinance. The group is reviewing this draft and it looks like it may go to Council by January. RENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Meeting November 24, 1992 Page 15 d. City Administration La Shot: Reported that he had investigated a flashing neon sign which had been mentioned at the previous meeting. This sign is inside the building, Alaska Video, so therefore does not require a permit. 11. PERSONS PRESENT NOT SCHEDULED 12. INFORMATION ITEMS 1. City Council Agenda 13. COMMISSION COMMENTS & QUESTIONS Glick: Apologized to the Commission for being late. 14. ADJOURNMENT ~ There being no further business the meeting was adjourned at 8:10 p.m. Respectfully submitted, G~!~`'' Loret a Har y Transcribing Secretary ~~~~ ~- CITY OF KENAI PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION PUBLIC HEARING SIGN-IN SHEET Subject of Hearing: Date of Meeting• ~~-- ~~~- /.